Overflow cc for Alt Accounts

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Post by Oen Sat May 09, 2020 3:51 am

As you all know, the cc has been incredibly full these past few months resulting in a lot of unranked people being kicked randomly. While talking in the chat I noticed how there are a lot of players that are using multiple accounts all the time. I kind of came up with the idea to have a secondary clan chat where we can put those accounts so they can stop filling up the cc. That way we can still be in a cc amongst likeminded people and have a bit of casual chat going on there as well.

The cc could have only the moderators added for it to be low maintenance. It could also function as a cc to use during certain PvM events. Maybe even direct some people there if the main cc gets too full and people keep getting kicked.
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Post by Syllabic Sat May 09, 2020 5:59 am

First off, good on you for trying to think of solutions to this problem, Oen. I know how annoying it's been for a lot of people. It's made the CC rather inhospitable for our sizeable contingent of unranked clan members. It's made moderation more difficult for some as well, due to the fact that mods can no longer be ranked on multiple accounts. The clan update really can't come soon enough.

That said, while I think it could perhaps be helpful to have a secondary chat for use during clan events (so as not to fill up the main CC), I also see how it could end up being problematic having something like that available for everyday use.

The way I see it, as an official extension of the main chat, it would need to be held to the same standards we abide by currently, necessitating the same degree of active moderation. It's true enough that we almost always have plenty of mods on at any given time, but splitting the mod team like that is a tough ask. It can be difficult enough to manage a single chat, let alone two that can't effectively communicate with one another. It would also create extra admin work for Bear, as I don't believe you can have more than one clan chat per account, meaning that the initial ban list + future banned members would need to be blocked on the secondary OSRS Advice account as well.

This is just my two cents, of course. I imagine such a setup would work excellently for large clans that don't have the comparatively strict set of rules that we do, and I certainly won't rule out the possibility that it could be a success for us, too. But, as it currently stands (and provided I've understood your suggestion correctly!), I think it'd likely be more trouble than it's worth.

I'm interested in hearing what other people think, though Smile

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Post by SoraSpirit Sat May 09, 2020 6:31 am

Honestly, thank you for thinking of an idea and trying to contribute to solving the issue.

Whilst I wish it was as simple as creating a new clan chat - unfortunately it becomes a bit tough to moderate both. Not to mention who would hold the account of the "osrs advice alt" with it being an official extension of Osrs Advice. Razz

I find that reminding people to remove their alts works to a certain degree. But honestly, nothing I said is anything original from Syll's thoughts

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Post by Pidalu Sat May 09, 2020 4:12 pm

I dont hate the idea, and would be willing to moderate the alt cc if needed.
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Post by Bear Sat May 09, 2020 6:59 pm

As has already been said, thanks for taking the initiative and putting in the effort to make the cc a better place. A lot of it gets discussed in passing and no one ever wants to put in the effort to type up an official thread for it, so I'm glad to see it. I hope you don't mind if we consider this the "official" discussion and point similar ideas to this thread for explanation!


There's been many people saying " 'Osrs Advice 2' cc when??" and it's not a foreign concept to me/us, having been discussed multiple times in the past. However, there's quite a few problems preventing us from doing so.

The tl;dr of it is that, it's not an outlandish idea, it's been discussed here and there and would make sense in some ways, but there's indeed a few reasons that it's not feasible for now. Read on if you'd like some of the details!


Moderation

The first issue comes down to moderation. We already have concerns keeping one cc covered with active moderators across all timezones. The only way to solve this problem is to dramatically lower our standards in what we look for when it comes to moderators, which I'm not planning on doing for reasons stated further down. There's also various other moderation concerns such as the extra layer of clarification necessary when making reports, as well as the additional room for confusion that it would inevitably lead to from a moderation perspective.

This also just gives trolls a second target, if we ban a troll from one then we have to ban them from both, we have to hope that the moderator(s) in the second cc happen to be looking at the chat, aren't busy with something else, etc. Then we also need other moderators to moderate the moderators (because every system needs checks and balances).

Edit: Another factor I remembered is the potential for impostor alt ccs pretending to be us, unless I lock down every closely related rsn with new accounts.


Relevancy

It also comes down to relevant usage. Realistically, when we're at 100/100, how many people are actually clamoring to get in at the same time?

Now take that number, and then we gotta consider, how many of those people are actually active in the cc?
We currently have people trying to stuff their alts in the cc (which I'm indeed currently working on a moderation-level solution for), along with people who simply join the cc and lurk, and only contribute when they need something. We even have some that admittedly don't realize they're in the cc because they turned the Clan Chat filter to "off" for one reason or another, and the game just automatically places them in the cc when they log in.

With the new smiley process, the ones who put in the effort and are actually active (thus having justifiable complaints of being removed) will get their smiley in time and will only need to worry about being removed from the cc in the most rare of instances afterwards. Most people who come in for advice are there to ask their question, get their answer, and then they leave. Otherwise, some may stay just in case they have another question later.


Reasoning

The next thing to consider is the reasoning behind the increased numbers in the first place. While we've been at 100/100 many times before the pandemic/quarantine, and I'd love to take credit for all the extra members we have now, the fact is that we're only this consistently full due to said quarantine, and as soon as restrictions are lifted (which they are starting to do, for better or worse), we will see our numbers inevitably dwindle down to a less-full - but still active! - number that we saw pre-quarantine.

Prior to the quarantine, we would usually hover around the 70s and 80s, up to the 90s if we got REALLY busy during peak hours, sometimes hit 100/100 on busy days and during big events, and then sit around 30-40 during off-peak hours. Now, it's rare that we see the 80s at all during peak times, usually sitting at 90-95 instead, and sometimes 100/100 for a few minutes until we drop back down to 98, rinse and repeat. Even off-peak times we went from that 30-40 up to 70+.


Summary

In summary, we'd need to sacrifice valuable moderators to moderate the second cc for what would likely equate to a small amount of unranked members that may just be alts or lurkers, and inevitably the extra trolls that come along with it.

If we continue to have this issue with space post-quarantine, it's definitely still an option that can be revisited and will continue to be worked on by me behind the scenes in the meantime, but for right now it's a lot of logistics, work, and uncertainty for something that may just be temporary and then get shut down anyways.

A lesser reason is that I also pay for the OSRS Advice membership out of pocket, so the secondary cc would need to be paid all the same - either out of pocket or using cc funds for bonds, due to the restrictions placed on f2p accounts below a certain total level.


SO, while it's something that's being considered and slowly worked on in the meantime, that's why it's not yet implemented and may not be for quite some time - but you're on the right track because it is something already in the works if it's needed on a more permanent basis.


Thanks again for actually going through and putting in the effort to make a thread. A lot of it is usually just people saying "hey do this" or the classic "osrs advice 2 cc when???" but don't want to put in the effort to simply log in and make a thread.
I also again hope you don't mind me referring people to this to be seen as the official thread. Smile

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Post by Oen Sun May 10, 2020 2:44 am

Thanks for the replies so far. You've made some great points and did a great job explaining them.

Moderation was the first issue I thought of myself too. I know how time consuming moderation can be for a cc with strict rules and a large community. I was a clan leader myself for about 5 years and was ranked the "Fast sc" cc in rs2 along the side. We had 1 person create up to a 100 accounts and put them at the GE in a lot of worlds spamming to send trolls our way. I had hoped with the community getting older that there would be fewer issues with trolling and spammers. I'm sure you all still have plenty to deal with though (thanks for your hard work).

I was trying to think of solutions to make moderation less of an issue. Advertising the cc only to people that are already ranked, maybe in discord. Or making it invite only and locking the cc to people who aren't added. It could be opened up for clan events. Though I suppose even the ranked people do still require moderation to some extent. It would also limit the purpose of such a cc more than I'd like.

Another thing you mentioned is the restrictions on low level f2p accounts. In my experience it doesn't take too much time to get past that point. You could have the account accesible for multiple moderators. That's what every clan I've been in has done.

I'm not sure I agree entirely with your point about the number of people in the cc. Yes we've seen a huge increase during quarantine and it will no doubt go down soon but the cc filling up to the max was definitely an issue before that too. It maxed out every evening (gmt+2) from friday to sunday most of the time. I've spoken to people who are unranked and getting kicked while the cc is full is really quite common. I've experienced it multiple times on another account too and it can easily happen a few times per hour.
Lurkers are another thing. Okay they don't chat but I feel like they have a right to be in the cc. There can be a lot of reasons to be quiet and still want to read the chat. They might be pressing a key down to train a certain skill. They might not be very comfortable talking in the english language but do read it. Or maybe they just don't have much to say. You can learn so much just lurking in the cc and reading other people's questions. It's totally understandable that people don't want to go through the effort of getting a rank. We all have busy lives; they might not have time to play all that much and would just have their rank removed for being inactive anyways. I've seen people show up at our clan events that haven't talked at all in cc or public but they still want to come. That's fine to me, everyone is different.
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Post by Kind Courier Tue May 26, 2020 4:49 pm

I know it would be useful today, lol Ive been trying to get in for about an hour.
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