Advice is nice

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Post by Murky OSRS Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:12 am

I've been thinking about something lately and I've decided to voice my opinion about it. I've noticed that some questions asked in the clan chat sort of get brushed off with a "look it up yourself" kind of response, in essence. I can understand telling someone to look up a guide to answer their question when the response could be lengthy or complex, but if their answer involves maybe a 30 word response, I don't see why, instead of "Google it" or some otherwise recalcitrant response, actual advice can't be given. This is an advice-based clan. Personally, I'd rather have no advice at all vs. Someone saying to google it and defeat the purpose of asking for a little knowledge in a chat built on giving guidance.
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Post by Syllabic Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:50 am

I see what you're getting at, Murky. It's a totally valid stance to take, and a lot of people share it. In fact, just moments ago Sora finally finished trying to drive home how wrong I am Laughing He's very likely in the correct camp on this, but I love hearing myself talk, so here are my thoughts anyway:

Based on my own experiences with chat, especially lately, I disagree to a large extent. We have no shortage of knowledgeable players in the chat at pretty much any given time, able and eager to help if someone has a question worth answering. However, those aren't the sorts of questions I see popping up as much as I'd like. What I *do* see a lot of is people wanting us to do their work for them. Simple, common knowledge kind of stuff that borders on noob-baiting more than I'm comfortable with (yes, some people are genuinely new to the game; there's a kinder way to word this, but it's very late and I don't care to think of it). Questions that end up being so abstruse or specific that the answer will need to be looked up regardless (or, on the off chance not, covered more clearly and comprehensively by an online source anyway). Looked up by us, though. Not by them, because we're an advice chat, and that's the sort of thing we signed up for. I'd only call that "advice" in the barest sense of the word, and in case there was any doubt, it's not something I respond well to.

I think we'd do well to occupy a middle ground. We're an advice clan, as you say. Always have been, always will be, and I'm not interested in challenging that. The brief, above all else, is to help people. Obviously, telling people to "just Google something" doesn't align very well with our core values. I do very much understand where that impulse comes from. We're not lackeys, and regurgitating secondhand info for people isn't exceptionally rewarding. But, there's something to be said for encouraging people to discover stuff for themselves in a more diplomatic way. Shutting folks down like that doesn't do wonders for our image, and at the end of the day we're an open clan with few requirements. We want people to feel welcome, irrespective of who they are or where they're at. But, surely there's a way to do that while also ensuring that we don't graduate from "respected forum for meaningful discussion" to "soulless Q&A hour".

Having us as a support network is awesome, but we're best off when we all have something of our own to contribute. Or, are all at least willing to make the effort. A font of Runescape knowledge I am not, and I'll be the first to admit it Smile

Good opportunity for discussion. Thanks for the post.

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Post by twobviku Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:53 am

I have to agree with Syll here, a lot of the times where I ask someone to go look something up on the wiki it's because I don't know the answer, and if I am to provide the answer I have to go look it up myself, which shouldn't really be something I am forced to do, I am always more than happy to answer if I know the answer to the question. But the honest truth it that a lot time it's easier for whomever is asking a question to go look it up themselves. Plus this also teaches how good the wiki really is for finding info.

That being said, if someone asks me my personal opinion or generally has a question that may not be able easily searched for I am always more than happy to answer that question.

So as what Syll said, there is a middle ground to be found.
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Post by ladybird2 Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:30 pm

Interesting discussion. As you know I dress and play very much in my old school rut, and retain very little of the new advances in the game and that makes me reluctant to give advice beyond my own personal experience rather than bis, ehp, but if I think there is room for me to comment or redress the balance rather than overwhelm them I will chip in.

I am always grateful for those that do have an answer, and learnt from an earlier topic along these lines, that actually saying, 'I'm sorry I have no idea', is preferable to leaving a question mid air and making someone feel foolish, so I do that too. It will sometimes alert someone who does know to look up and take the time to share, which happens a lot and i'm grateful for.

I have issues mostly with anyone who does the 'my way or the highway' approach to giving advice without even knowing someone stats or their possible bank balance, when use your tbow/scythe will not do anything more that demoralise half the clan..but meh!.

Yesterday I was slaying in catas using wrath runes for the first time, an uim said why no tome of fire, and why no tormented, and did you know you could imbue your slayer helm, and was really nice to me. He also asked if I could see the little wiki button by the mini map, I confess I have never used it, but it might be worthwhile as quick click to anyone else who hasnt since it would be easy and helpful. I left my task with a shopping list for the ge and a happy heart, that sort of practical advice is the sort of thing this clan is known and loved for and I hit some booming 45's with my mage on my next task.

I do think being on mobile makes looking things up is a factor for some too.

On any one day depending on who is around advice like that happens, if you know and share, encourage others to as well ( easy for me to say) I told him(the uim) I'm too old to be bored doing nightmare zone...and he laughed, but its what the clan does it opens your eyes and game to an option.

I also get very irritated by an attention seeker who wont listen, downplays every bit of advice negatively and doesnt actually want to learn but just be the focus for a while, for them suggesting wiki is almost too good advice. In those circumstances I can fully understand why people would rather carry on playing than feed someone.

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Post by Bear Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:40 pm

Echoing other sentiments, there's indeed a difference between "advice" and "calculations". We're not "OSRS Efficiency" or "OSRS Maths Club", and asking "what's the xp/hr using chins" isn't really asking for advice. That's asking someone else to take their free time and spend it googling on that person's behalf, grabbing base numbers and doing the calculations. Some of our members are happy to do that for them, but I would never make that a strict expectation of them, especially when Jagex has made it easier than ever to look stuff up via the wiki.

Now that said, should our members be being friendly about it? Yes. I'd rather someone say nothing than just "lol google it". That alone could be worded better, such as "that'd require a good bit of work, you'll probably be better off googling it tbh". Otherwise, as Lb mentioned, "I have no clue myself, sorry" works just as well.

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Post by eoinc Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:41 am

i believe that this cc is a very good support system for players of all sorts, no matter how new or experienced they may be. that being said, when anyone eventually needs help of their own, our goal is to provide the resources, whether it be our own experience or the wiki, to you. sometimes an answer is frankly unanswerable in the CC, these questions would include xp/gp per hour in a specific skill, using a specific method, at a specific level. while i don't like people saying 'google it' without any work or thought before saying so, sometimes its the best advice we could give, because there may be a chance that someone in the wide world of rs has done what you've asked about and can tell you on a different platform from our cc or offsite.

at the end of the day, while we're an advice cc, we are not always the 'answers' cc. we're here to be a helping hand as opposed to a crutch for our members. while the delivery shouldn't be as rude as a curt "google it", sometimes it is ultimately the best resource we can muster in our short time we have to think of an answer before its lost in the scroll bar of the fast paced cc dialogue. Hopefully people aren't too rude to you in the future, and if they are, please remind them to be respectful to players that ask questions. thanks
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Post by Spiritika Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:20 am

Like many others here, I share advice if I have the knowledge or tell them I don’t know when I don’t. I would never tell someone “lol google it” but will direct someone to the wiki or to YouTube (especially for quest guides) if that would provide more thorough information than I could provide in a clan chat. In both cases, whether giving direct advice or whether directing them to the wiki, we’re still providing help to the person seeking answers.

I also agree with others here that we’re not here to provide math calculations on such things as experience per hour as that could be done by the person seeking advice just as easily as it could be by someone within the clan chat.
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Post by Murky OSRS Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:56 pm

Thank you all for your input on the matter. I agree with what you guys said about not being able to expect players to do xp/hr calculations as well as info that would normally be common knowledge, with the exception of genuinely new players. I think this post was great for clarifying the difference between advice and "calculations" as Bear put it. Thank you all for you thoughts.
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